Setting the records straight for BlueBeauty.

[RetiredEgo]

So Bluebeauty here in an attempt to invalidate and discredit prophet Mohammed’s (PBUH) descriptions on human Embryology that have been revered by many of today scientists, including the renowned director of Anatomy in North America, Dr Keith Moore, for their amazing accuracy and miraculousness , facts prophet Mohammed provided only realized in recent years. She provided a stale ignoramus popular argument online that Prophet Muhammed,... rather the Holy Quran describing sperm becoming a clot formation is erroneous.

Here are her words-
http://www.naijaryders.com/forums/sh...24#post3786024

Originally Posted by BlueBeauty

RetiredEgo my dear, do as you please but I will not engage in a futile debate with you. But just for kicks lets look at some passages in Quran that deals with embryology:

40:67 He it is Who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot, then brings you forth as a child….
75:37-38 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did ((Allah)) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
22:5 O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed,…
23:12-14 Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot as congealed blood; then of that clot We made a lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature…

At this point I will like to humbly point out that according to science, at no point in development, were we a clot.


Selective interpretation can be used to prove anything.

At this point I would like to also humbly state that if the sperm that made her didn’t clot (just joking, no offense), then there lies the problem, because normal sperm clots at ejaculation according to modern scientific knowledge and in harmony with the Holy Quran’s firm, confident qualification.


Ref 1.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealt...enandsperm.htm
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/h...or/000321.html

What is normal semen?

Semen is usually white or grey, but can occasionally appear yellowish. Pink or red semen suggests that blood is present. Although this is only rarely due to a serious health problem, men with semen that seems bloodstained should seek advice from their family doctor.

Semen clots almost immediately after ejaculation, forming a sticky, jelly-like liquid. It will liquefy again in 5 to 40 minutes. It is quite normal for semen to form jelly-like globules and this does not indicate any health or fertility problem. Failure of clotting and subsequent liquefaction can cause fertility problems.

Ref 2.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/lifestyle/h...part1_3-2.html

Initially, semen is thick and clotted. It almost immediately coagulates due to a reaction between an enzyme from the prostatic secretions (proteinase, or clotting enzyme) acting on a sticky protein within the seminal vesicle secretions. The semen then forms a thick, gelatinous clot. This is thought to be an evolutionary remnant. Semen in many promiscuous lower animals clots to form a cervical plug. This effectively blocks the female cervix and prevents semen from another male impregnating the female.

Ref 3.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1952.tb39954.x

immediately after ejaculation, motile activity. as. a rule is quite feeble. .... Morphologically, the semen clot resembles fibrin formation of blood

Ref 4.

http://www.level1diet.com/research/q/clot%20formation

CD52 is a human glycosylphosphatidylinositol (GPI)-anchored antigen exclusively expressed in leukocytes and epididymal cells. It is also present in sperm, being inserted in their plasma membrane as they pass through the epididymis. In a previous paper we identified a new CD52 form without GPI anchor by fast performance liquid chromatography (FPLC) fractionation of semen components. The form has a lower negative charge than the GPI-anchored form and occurs as the only CD52 form in prostasome-free seminal plasma. It was also found associated with the ejaculated sperm…

Activated coagulation factor XIII (FXIIIa) cross-links the gamma-chains of fibrin early in clot formation.

In conclusion. Bluebeauty and anyone else. if you have problems with the Constantine version Holy book you handle. Do not fu*k with my Holy Quran!

[RetiredEgo]

More research on sperm clotting here in pubmed. This clotting/coagulation property of sperm was recently identified and is being seriously studied due to a role/possible role in infertility-

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1779515

A large group of 48 proteins was assigned a role in immune responses. The seminal plasma was previously shown to suppress induction of cell-mediated cytotoxicity [26] as well as to protect spermatozoa from female humoral response. We found seven proteins involved in the regulation of these functions - members of either the classical or the alternative complement pathways. The suppression of immunity is necessary to protect spermatozoa from attack by the female immune system and to prevent immunization of the female reproductive tract against semen. A total of eight proteins are involved in blood clotting (hemostasis), such as Von Willebrand factor or tissue factor pathway inhibitor, which supports suggestions that human semen contains a functional hemostatic system.

...The number of enzymes present in seminal plasma should not surprise, given the task that seminal plasma enzymes perform. First, they need to digest a strong seminal clot formed within moments after ejaculation. The protein responsible for this is kallikrein-like protease 3 (hK3) or PSA [25].
..

[RetiredEgo]

You may wanna google Semenogelin I the predominat protein in sperm.

http://www.biolreprod.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/3/624

[RetiredEgo]

And then BlueBeauty, just look at the beautiful verse from the Quran in my signature. Allah/Elohim/Eloi/Elah knew that the world will get to the stage of telescopy and space travel to see the horizon, and also will get to the stages/age of electron and other minute internal microscopy to see our insides, and He knew that these discoveries will move us into realizing the truths of His words as now happens(though many still arrogantly reject).

We will show them Our Signs on the horizon and within themselves
until it is clear to them that it is the truth.
Is it not enough for your Lord that He is a witness of everything?
(Qur'an, 41: 53)

God is Great!

[BlueBeauty]

Source:

To Muslims, Quran is a holy book, revealed directly to Mohammed through the angel Gibrael. To them, it the absolute truth, the last message to mankind from the Creator of this Universe.

In reality, Quran is a creation of Mohammed's mind and includes collections of stories, brainwashing techniques, general common sense and morals, and some "scientific" statements.
All these elements were either common sense, were borrowed from other religions and sources, or were invented by Mohammed.

The reason why Quran is not divine, is that, it contains many defects, contradictions, wrong morals and incorrect science, and on top of it, all this has been copied from other sources.
All of Quran's scientific miracles have been refuted many times, such as on the Faith Freedom International website.

Had "Allah" been a true God, He would have made the Quran infinitely strong in such a way that any human being, no matter how hard he/she tried, would never be able to point out any defect in it.Instead, today, Islam is the World's most hatred and criticised religion, and Quran is being called the "manual of Terrorism".

So, could Quran truely be the "last" message to mankind by the Creator of this wonderful Universe?
Common sense replies with a firm negative.

As a summary of what the Quran actually is all about:

- Quran contains a sprinking of 'scientific' statements, which tried to impress the illiterate reader 1400 years ago. That was the era in which the Sun and the Moon were thought to go around the Earth. Today we know these 'scientific statements' to actually contain wrong science, as well as stuff copied from other religions and scientists of those time. An example is the idea of sperm being generated in the Backbone[Quran 86:6]. This idea was proposed by Greek scientists, and copied by Mohammed. If we had copyright laws 1400 years ago, Mohammed would have been jailed for copyright infringement and there would be no Islam today. Sadly, it was the era in which people buried their infant daughters and thus he took advantage of the fact that people around him were inhuman Arabs with *no* moral sense. Thus, Quran has *little* moral sense, when comparing to universal standards.

If the Quran was 100% bad, it would die out quickly. For this reason, Mohammed included some good things in Quran, so good people would support the Quran and keep Islam alive.
At the same, terrorists act out on the bad teachings of Quran, resulting in global terrorism whose painful effects have been and are being experienced by everyone.
It is these bad teachings of Quran that have jeapordized the Global peace process. One of the many excellent articles which illustrates this point while citing evidence from Quran, can be read here on the FFI web site.

Islamic terrorism will continue to injure mankind and create misery on Earth, until Islam ceases to exist.

[RetiredEgo]

So are you asking me to demonstrate to you how Sperm actually comes exactly from where it is said to come from in the Quran.
I'll do that soon, on ma way to work. This is dejavu, cuz I answered this same thing on NR to KAG b4. Aneeway i'll indulge you

Please prepare your next attack cuz this one is toast.

[RetiredEgo]

Here i was able to pull up the thread. Enjoy -

Amazing truths about Science found in the 4th century Quran Mohammed(SAW) dictated..

Originally Posted by superego

Lesson 501

Anatomical terminology.

Saggital- A vertical line that runs caudal, bottom to cepahlic, to the head, smack in the middle of the body, ie- over the backbone/spine. (Vertical, top-bottom, or bottom-top line)

Parasaggital- Any vertical line parallel to this line. Could run at the point where the ribs meet the backbone, at the nipple at the armpit, etc, top to bottom.

These terms are used to try to pinpoint locations, to people who know how to use them, which would otherwise(without this terminology) be too impossible, and lengthy to do.

Quranic anatomical reference> Sperm comes from between the backbone and ribs.
Let's look at this in anatomical terms.

Study drawing and study how ribs project downwards. See protected location of kidneys, and read links above showing also that the Testes originate from next to the kidneys, and their nerves and food still come from there.



We see the backbone. We look at a sagittal-parasaggital line at the point where the ribs join the backbone/Spine, and ask what that area is called.

Depending on its vertical height. If it were in the thorax, it would approximately be, in the mediastinum, - the location of the Aorta, esophagus, the IVC, azygous vein, nerve ganglions, anteriorly it will coincide with thesternocoastal margin, right border of the heart, etc.

In the abdominopelvis, it coincides with the lumbar region, branchings of the abdominal Aorta the nerve and blood supply origins to the Testes, and lower down, the testes location itself.

Draw a vertical line between the backbone and the ribs urself on a printout of the drawing above, and tell me if it doesnt pass thru the lumbar region and strike the balls.

In many other primates the balls are still in abdomen at the back, near the kidneys hence a parasagital sectional description is the best and only possible way to cover the testes- 1. Final location, 2, origin, 3, permanent roots(Nerves and vessels), 4 Its location in other relative mammals.

Got ur cookie?

Originally Posted by superego

The Testes is also called- An abdominal organ!

A parasaggital section/line between the spine and the ribs, covers and touches everything about sperm production-

1. The testes origin
2. Its location through out 7 months of fetal life
3. Where it remains when it fails to descend.
4. Its root of descent
5. Its permanent attachement roots, blood supply and nerve sources, like the roots of a flower, not where the flower is, but the ground where it remains planted.
6.And even/ofcourse, Its final location.

It all starts at the inferior groove between the ribs and spine(lumbar region) at level L3-4 or so, and progresses downward.

Now go eat some spinnach.

[RetiredEgo]

Lemme show u how to do this, so u don't need wait for me or next time u can do ur own search b4 embarrasing urself so to say by posting information from dirty, desperate ignoramuses online propaganda lieing sites.

All u need do is Google-

'Testicular descent'
'Testes, abdominal organ'
'Testes innervation and blood supply, posterior abdominal wall' (It only hangs in the balls to get cool temperature but its activity is absolutely abdominal.)

You may wanna use 'google images' to search for 'science, testes, posterior abdominal wall' Put it all in one search box. Please post ur results, esp the images. ONLY SCIENCE SITE RESULTS
PLEASE! None from angry and obviously desparate, jealous dirty trick devilish sites. Thanks.

Here's Somn to think about- Where is a fastened flying kite located? or where is a flower located also where does ur pipe borne water come from, ur tap or water corporation?




I'll be waiting round the corner for ur continuation or 3rd challenge.

[BlueBeauty]

So you wrote all that to show me what? that sperm is generated in the backbone and ribs? Or the location of a man testis when it refuses to drop?

wow! and I thought it was our lungs & heart that is located between the backbone & ribs? So you saying a man scrotum is located there also? Interesting…

Also tot the sperm, drop, liquid, clot (or whatever you want to call it) is not formed in embryonic development and does not begin until the testicles begin to mature, which is after the birth of the baby, after the testicles have descended out of the body, when the man is grown & reproducing? What relevance is to the embryo?

In that case it can be argued that our foot comes from our chest too. Cause at some point everything was a dot or is it a clot? And located between the ribs and backbone, right? hmmmm.

So the passage says:

Originally Posted by Quran 86:5-7

" Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:"

So, man is made from a "drop that issues from the adult male during the reproductive act, from a specific physical place "between the backbone and the ribs." Right?

SO its not that sperm is produced in the system of tubes in the testicles which are located in the scrotum or is it?

Well we know for sure (thanks to science, that sperm is produced in the scrotum & we also know that the scrotum is not located between the back and the ribs. If yours is, please contact the guiness book of records and a research institute prompto.

Now, it would only make logical sense for the verse to be speaking of the moment of adult reproduction, since an embryo is not perfoming this act, and so, we are left with the very real conflict where according to your holy book, semen is coming from somewhere in around the heart & lungs (between ribs and backbone) and not the testicles.

The more I read the more shit I find so give it up already. I bet if science discovers that sperm comes from the brain you’ll find a way to make it fit the context of your quran.

[BlueBeauty]

Yeap that book is a wonderful book, ain’t it grand that with each every change in science, it manages to adjust and find a way to fit? A miraculous infallible unchanging book indeed.
Go HOLY BOOK GO!

[RetiredEgo]

BlueBeauty, Peace to you.

How do I explain this. Let's look at this honestly and plainly, whatever you say after this, I won't object.

Let 'commitment' be the key word of this my presentation. Notice where the word occurs, that shall be the end of it. Where exactly the cells make a commitment.


Here is the debated Quranic verse:

" Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs Quran 86:5-7:"

If a coconut fell from a tree in Saudi Arabia. And was washed into the sea, and floated to Maryland, and germinated into a coconut tree. Where is the best place to say the coconut tree proceeded from? Or we may ask, where an offspring of a sperm donor bank proceeded from, the bank that processed and emitted him or the initial human donor.

So the million dollar question is- Where is it rightful to say as scientists that Sperm proceeds from? The testes where the Spermatogonia germinate into sperm or the place between the backbone and ribs on the posterior abdominal wall where the spermatogonia arise in the fetus.

The simple way to answer this is to ask if sperm is the beginning/the reasonable start point or spermatogonia is the beginning. If you choose sperm as your beginning, then read no further, cuz you are correct.

If you choose that the primordial germ cell Spermatogonia are the beginning of new life, and view 'sperm' as just one of many stages(like- spermatids, primary spermatocytes and the rest) from when cells make a commitment to proceed to being originators of a new life and never anything else, then, we go ahead to ask the question I noticed you intelligently asked above,- 'That you assumed, males being different from females, our spermatogonia are manufactured afresh later in life, unlike women where the eggs/oogonia are all pre-made from the fetal stage'. Because you know that the testes is still at that spot on the back in the fetus till birth.

Here we look for help-

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j06mh47170731624/

Electron microscopic studies of the testis were performed on 12 human embryos and fetuses between 9 and 30 weeks post conception. According to their ultrastructural features, the fetal germ cells could be divided into the following three stages of differentiation: 1) gonocytes, 2) intermediate cells, and 3) fetal spermatogonia. ......
With the maturation of the fetus, the number of gonocytes was found to decrease, whereas the number of fetal spermatogonia increased.

From the above we see that spermatogonia are formed/present in the embryo.


Now these spermatogonia, called Ap spermatogonia later produce more spermatogonia in the adult when they are outside the abdomen, in the scrotum, as we see here-

http://www.andrologysociety.com/reso...dbook/ch.5.asp

The spermatogonia are immature germinal cells located at the base of the seminiferous epithelium. In man, there are three types of spermatogonia: the pale type A spermatogonia or Ap, the dark type A spermatogonia or Ad, and the type B spermatogonia. The Ap spermatogonia divide by mitosis and give rise either to new type Ap cells or to the more differentiated type B spermatogonia. Thus, the Ap cells may be thought of as self-renewing stem cells

So from this I believe it is left for us to choose whether we feel we came from Ap spermatogonia which proceeded from that spot on the fetus' back, between his spine bone and rib, or whether we came from new Ap spermatogonia which were daughter cells of promordial germinal spermatogonia which proceeded from that spot between the Back bone and rib.

It's up to you. I hope I didn't here bend Quran, but only expanded Science. God bless you as you read.

Image of testes in fetus demonstrating its descent from the posterior abdominal wall between the spine bone and rib to the scrotum-




To prove my own choice of our origin, we must proove that fetal primordial germ cells are capable of differentiating into sperm. I thought this will be a field of later research, but surprisingly I found it has actually been studied and affirmed.-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...indexed=google

Transplantation of fetal germ cells into the seminiferous tubules of adult testis showed that donor germ cells, at 14.5 days postcoitum (dpc), were able to initiate spermatogenesis in the adult recipient seminiferous tubules, whereas no germ cell differentiation was observed in the transplantation of 12.5-dpc germ cells. These results indicate that the commitment of fetal germ cells to differentiate into spermatogonial stem cells initiates between embryonic days 12.5 and 14.5.

When they still are at that spot between the rib and back bone. And that was acttually the entire importance of this ncbi pubmed research.


I rest my case.
To Allah/Ellah/Elohim/YaHuwah be the glory.

[Smurfelina]

Quran 23:14 Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

.

[RetiredEgo]

Originally Posted by Smurfelina

.

That is an 'I to know', adding while he was interpreting, who loves adding stuff, I color red andd italicized other stuff he added below. The guy who added that's name is Yusuf Ali, a western type muslim, many of us do not use his translation of the Quran. He restructured a lot including turning the Quran around to start from the left as do english books, instead of from the right hand, as we Muslims have it, read right to left, opened right to left. So sorry, but I do not use his translations. (Read about how Muslims keep ammending his work- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali)


The simple single word is 'Alaq',= Clot/Cling/hang. There aint no many words 'congealed blood' in that one word.

Here, compare three common translations. Allah knows best-

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/096.qmt.html

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

96:1
YUSUFALI: Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
PICKTHAL: Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,
SHAKIR: Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

96:2
YUSUFALI: Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
PICKTHAL: Createth man from a clot.
SHAKIR: He created man from a clot.

I mean, even the English aint right. 'Clot of congealed blood.' Is there anything as a 'clot of Un-Congealed blood.?'

[RetiredEgo]

So i told my Jewish psychologist co-worker about this debate.

We have mutual respect, and she has said she believes Prophet Muhammed definitely was from God, and someone she would have wished to see. In her word, he passed all prophet tests,- pain, hunger, temptation, death of children, persecution, he gave the consistent message, etc.

Ok, so when I told her about my discovering sperm clot, she immediately interrupted me saying the Ovum is clot based itself. I was dumbfounded. i respect her, cuz she always makes sense, on Iraq, policies etc. We are always in harmony, 100% on all topics, politics to God.

And here is the truth. Man is made from clots everywhere. We are a clotty mess.


http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=026...OR-enlargePage

the corpus luteum, 'Luteum' is Latin for yellow, referring to the yellow fibrin clot.


http://www.med.umich.edu/histology/e...maleRepro.html

A central blood clot may be present in recently ovulated follicles.




http://www.geocities.com/saleemdada/circulation.html


http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=53&gl=us

Follicles which ovulate will see:
bloody cavity (corpus hemorrhagicum)
-
clot reabsorbs, cells and vessels invade
Remaining wall components

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_luteum


http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...0hemorrhagicum

Corpus hemorrhagicum
a ruptured graafian follicle containing a blood clot that is absorbed as the cells lining the follicle form the corpus luteum


http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...+hemorrhagicum

A corpus luteum containing a blood clot that is gradually absorbed and replaced by clear fluid.

[BlueBeauty]

clot is closely defined with blood nothing else. All this add-lib stuff is a waste of energy.

Definitions of Clot on the Web:

A plug that forms at the wound site to stop the body from bleeding.
www.hemophiliagalaxy.com/general/encyclopedia.html

A tight collection of blood cells organized into a small mass. Clots may form in the veins of the lower extremities and break off to cause pulmonary emboli (see Pulmonary Embolism). ...
www.barnesjewish.org/groups/default.asp

A thick lump of blood formed by clotting factors that work together to help stop bleeding.
www.hfindia.org/node/27

The plug that develops at a bleeding site and stops the flow of blood.
www.cslbehring.co.uk/s1/cs/beuk/1160484790084/page/1160484790023/GlossaryList.htm

a thick, viscous, or coagulated mass or lump, formed from the content of a liquid, as of blood.
www.seximus.ro/dictionary/sex_dictionary_letter_c.php
a thick and coagulated solid made of blood to allow for a wound to close up.
www.crazycrutches.com/dictionary.htm

cause to change from a liquid to a solid or thickened state
curdle: turn into curds; "curdled milk"
clog: coalesce or unite in a mass; "Blood clots"


A thrombus, or blood clot, is the final product of the blood coagulation step in hemostasis. It is achieved via the aggregation of platelets that form a platelet plug, and the activation of the humoral coagulation system (i.e. clotting factors). ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clot

clot (klŏt) Pronunciation Key
A soft insoluble mass formed when blood or lymph gels. During blood clotting, white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets, and various clotting factors interact in a cascade of chemical reactions initiated by a wound. When a body tissue is injured, calcium ions and platelets act on prothrombin to produce the enzyme thrombin. Thrombin then catalyzes the conversion of the protein fibrinogen into fibrin, a fibrous protein that holds the clot together. An abnormal clot inside the blood vessels or the heart (a thrombus or an embolus) can obstruct blood flow.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.