Poison or Cure? Religious Belief in the Modern World

BlueBeauty · 10-23-2007, 11:34 PM

dedicated to daddidollars & Afrosoul

A debate between Hitchens and McGrath. Absolutely stunning. Hitchens is amazing in form and articulates very well the problems with religious belief. Watch the video (its long - 1 hr 40 mins -but it's worth it) and tell me what you think?

BlueBeauty · 10-24-2007, 02:51 AM

Hitchens:

Quote:

...another immoral & sinister thing about religion is that lurking under it at all times, in every one of its versions, is this desire for life to come to an end...the yarning of a secret death wish for this poor world to be over... cause only then would we transition to a more blessed state of existence...

daddidollars · 10-24-2007, 03:41 AM

summarize it for me abeg....... 1hr and 40 mins!!!!

BlueBeauty · 10-24-2007, 03:55 AM

Its a long debate. can't summarize. I'll post some highlights.
its broken down into 4 clips on youtube, how about 9mins of Hitchens argument? that's a good start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip2nw0NWUW4

daddidollars · 10-24-2007, 03:56 AM

thank you!

BlueBeauty · 10-24-2007, 03:58 AM

oh its several mini clips short & sweet.

BlueBeauty · 10-24-2007, 04:14 AM

HITCHENS - is it moral to believe that your sins can be forgiven by the punishment of another person? is it ethical to believe that? Hitchens submits that the doctrine of vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral.
The name for that in primitive Middle Eastern society was scapegoating. You pile all the sins of the tribe on a goat. You drive that goat into the desert to die of thirst and hunger, and you think you've taken away the sins of the tribe -- a positively immoral doctrine that abolishes the concept of personal responsibility on which all ethics and all morality must depend.

MCGRATH - (who is a former atheist by the way) For me God is a celestial liberator. The New Testament talks about the truth setting you free. It talks about the glorious liberty of the children of God. And I fully accept that Mr. Hitchens is very committed to the moral vision, has a real sense of what is right and what is wrong. But can one have a viable moral system without some sort of transcendent basis of morality?

... And in the end I came to faith, swapping my old faith of atheism for my new one of Christianity. It was like someone, I suppose, who knew water discovering champagne.

MCGRATH - I believe (quoting CS Lewis) "in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not simply because I see it but because by it I see everything else." I will gladly concede, because I think Mr. Hitchens is right on this, that there are some forms of religion that are pathological, that damage people. For every one of these atrocities which must cause all of us deep concern, there are 10,000 unreported acts of kindness, generosity, and so forth arising from religious commitment.

BlueBeauty · 10-24-2007, 05:30 AM

Hitchens paraphrased:

Religion evolved from lack of knowledge during our first few thousand years. Things couldn't be explained so it was attributed to an imaginary being. But our recent understanding and knowledge is enough to assert reason against religion, foils the explanation that we were made from dust (christianity) or a clot of blood (Islam).

Quote:

...of course accord to Christian faith heaven watched us live like this (wretchedly and in filth of sin) with folded arms for 9800 years and then decided its time to intervene - And the best way of doing that would be a human sacrifice in primitive Palestine. Where the news would take so long to spread that it still hasn't penetrated some part of the world. And that would be our redemption of the human species.

Quote:

...religion appeals to both our meanness our self centeredness and to our masochism in other words its sadomasochistic. Put it this way, you are a clot of blood, you are a piece of mud, you are lucky to be alive, god fashioned you for his convenience even though you are born in filth and sin. We should be disgusted by our sexuality (so claims every religion). You are covered in shame and filth, you are a wretched creature. But take heart! The universe is designed with you in mind and heaven has a place for you.

Mr. J · 11-12-2007, 10:00 PM

Hitchens has a way with words dosn't he? Very entertaining debate!

10-23-2007, 11:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
BlueBeauty Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: oblivion Posts: 4,635 Points: 3,600.00 Bank: 1,283,790.94 Total Points: 1,287,390.95 Donate Rep Power: 5603134	Poison or Cure? Religious Belief in the Modern World dedicated to daddidollars & Afrosoul A debate between Hitchens and McGrath. Absolutely stunning. Hitchens is amazing in form and articulates very well the problems with religious belief. Watch the video (its long - 1 hr 40 mins -but it's worth it) and tell me what you think? __________________ As the river choose his path, though the river's proud and strong, He will choose the smoothest course _ That's why rivers live so long. They're steady~ as the steady beating drums.

10-24-2007, 03:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
BlueBeauty Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: oblivion Posts: 4,635 Points: 3,600.00 Bank: 1,283,790.94 Total Points: 1,287,390.95 Donate Rep Power: 5603134	Its a long debate. can't summarize. I'll post some highlights. its broken down into 4 clips on youtube, how about 9mins of Hitchens argument? that's a good start. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip2nw0NWUW4 __________________ As the river choose his path, though the river's proud and strong, He will choose the smoothest course _ That's why rivers live so long. They're steady~ as the steady beating drums.

10-24-2007, 04:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
BlueBeauty Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: oblivion Posts: 4,635 Points: 3,600.00 Bank: 1,283,790.94 Total Points: 1,287,390.95 Donate Rep Power: 5603134	First point HITCHENS - is it moral to believe that your sins can be forgiven by the punishment of another person? is it ethical to believe that? Hitchens submits that the doctrine of vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral. The name for that in primitive Middle Eastern society was scapegoating. You pile all the sins of the tribe on a goat. You drive that goat into the desert to die of thirst and hunger, and you think you've taken away the sins of the tribe -- a positively immoral doctrine that abolishes the concept of personal responsibility on which all ethics and all morality must depend. MCGRATH - (who is a former atheist by the way) For me God is a celestial liberator. The New Testament talks about the truth setting you free. It talks about the glorious liberty of the children of God. And I fully accept that Mr. Hitchens is very committed to the moral vision, has a real sense of what is right and what is wrong. But can one have a viable moral system without some sort of transcendent basis of morality? ... And in the end I came to faith, swapping my old faith of atheism for my new one of Christianity. It was like someone, I suppose, who knew water discovering champagne. MCGRATH - I believe (quoting CS Lewis) "in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not simply because I see it but because by it I see everything else." I will gladly concede, because I think Mr. Hitchens is right on this, that there are some forms of religion that are pathological, that damage people. For every one of these atrocities which must cause all of us deep concern, there are 10,000 unreported acts of kindness, generosity, and so forth arising from religious commitment. __________________ As the river choose his path, though the river's proud and strong, He will choose the smoothest course _ That's why rivers live so long. They're steady~ as the steady beating drums.

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10-24-2007, 03:58 AM	#6 (permalink)
BlueBeauty Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: oblivion Posts: 4,635 Points: 3,600.00 Bank: 1,283,790.94 Total Points: 1,287,390.95 Donate Rep Power: 5603134	oh its several mini clips short & sweet.

11-12-2007, 10:00 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mr. J Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: i ask questions only Posts: 626 Points: 14,110.00 Bank: 53,099.46 Total Points: 67,209.46 Donate Rep Power: 21474849	Hitchens has a way with words dosn't he? Very entertaining debate!

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