Zeitgeist (This movie will change the way you see everything)

[Onyiiboy]

[RetiredEgo]

It's a faily good un, though there's stuff they too kno they can't add up. Jim Carry's movie- 'A series of unfortunate events' ...they could't explain how people in different areas alltogether came up with identical, complex astrology, concident tales, same names. It's without doubt, powerful forces, either good or evil. But any intelligent person can not deny this fact. Not plagerism, but supernatural forces. And if there are bad forces, there must be good forces too to balance.

[Onyiiboy]

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

It's a faily good un, though there's stuff they too kno they can't add up. Jim Carry's movie- 'A series of unfortunate events' ...they could't explain how people in different areas alltogether came up with identical, complex astrology, concident tales, same names. It's without doubt, powerful forces, either good or evil. But any intelligent person can not deny this fact. Not plagerism, but supernatural forces. And if there are bad forces, there must be good forces too to balance.

Evil is not the opposite of good, it is the lack of it.

[coBra]

Originally Posted by Onyiiboy

wow,
interesting stuff Onyiboy!...

this actually had me up till about 5 a.m. in the morning doing some online research...

it's stuff like this that has kept me from retiring from this kindergarten called NR

however:
one question(concerning the 1st. part of the film) keeps on popping up though:

the only "authentic" written down evidence refrenced by the narrator for all this seems to be this "egyptian book of the dead"...

can this document really authenticate all these beliefs and history?

if so: can the true age of this book be authenticated (or has it been)?

and has the authenticity of this document itsself even been confirmed?

what have renowned scholars said about these theories?

somehow the only websites i found online dealing with these topics in depth seemed to be conspiracy or christian fundamental pages.....

and while entertaining didnt seem quite objective.

cheers

-C.

[RetiredEgo]

@Cobra-
There are numerous stone wall writtings in Egypt that validate some parts of it, and stone writings are easily dated and do not lie.

The part that religion that is earliest well documented from there is not contested by Muslims for instance in its basicity, we believe it didnt start from there even actually, religion as we know it today started with Adam, but kept getting lost or corrupted thru the generations so prophets only came with nothing much new really, just to ammend the errors.

The Egyptians as did Moses' people when he went up the mountain lost sight of the prize and changed from worshipping the one behind the events to worshipping the events- Sun, Gold cow, etc. So Moses came to re-align them.

That Moses ushered Aries and Jesus- fish, as said in the movie was used misleadingly at best, he gave few fish examples in the Bible He had absolutely NO evidence for that deduction. There were many other common terms and items Jesus used, why not those Jesus mention 'needle eye', 'camel', gold, etc, etc, anyone could say he ushered the Camel Era/ages too.

That the creator of the constellations used them as 'bookmarks' for His important events and even us, doesn't invalidate these events, when those constellations are rather worshipped in His stead as did the Egyptians, or misrepresented as did this producer. If I put an arrow on the road to point to a temple, if people start worshipping the arrow, it don't mean the temple never was.
I believe in astrology, that God made all man in 12 codes, this movie makes that seem like I do not exist because there is Leo star/sign.

Yes 'coincidentally' the three stars align when all 27,000 prophets of God were born/historicaly this is easily verified, he himself doesnt dispute. But I know the creator created this marker, while he says that because people noticed three stars in a row at these special times and worshipped a three-in-a-row, those prophetic events are false.

His movie is questions I easily answer as a believer, I would love to hear his alternative answers to these miraculous prophetic coincidences all in line, across the globe thru time from Noah, thru Abraham, thru Jesus, to Arabia and Muhammed...all three stars events, astrologically confirmed by scientists today. Maybe 3 stars spark births of revolutionary people or myths. I give praise to the force that aligns 3 stars. .
Confirming the beginning of faith and prayers as we know it today,read this-
Quran:
19:58] These are some of the prophets whom GOD blessed. They were chosen from among the descendants of Adam, and the descendants of those whom we carried with Noah, and the descendants of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom we guided and selected. When the revelations of the Most Gracious are recited to them, they fall prostrate, weeping.

Losing the Contact Prayers (Salat)

[19:59] After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

So we see that generations lost valuable elements, some being found among Egyptians is commendable, I atually showed this here on my site, -the Egyptians remembering the contact prayers though changing the focus from God, to God's(Gods things) http://understandingchrist.org/?p=62...=1&pb=1#more62

I mean today some people are Scientologists, giving praise to science, while I praise the brain behind science.

See the book I bought with pictures of this egyptian fact. in that link.

So the movie proved semblance and numerous coincidences, but didn't veriify or provide good reasons for such serious complicated miraculous coincidences. Good or evil(the lack of good @ Onjiboy) How does information travel the ancient world so fast and make impacts if there wasn't supernatural forces involved i ask......

[Onyiiboy]

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

@Cobra-
There are numerous stone wall writtings in Egypt that validate some parts of it, and stone writings are easily dated and do not lie.

Right.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

The part that religion that is earliest well documented from there is not contested by Muslims for instance in its basicity, we believe it didnt start from there even actually, religion as we know it today started with Adam, but kept getting lost or corrupted thru the generations so prophets only came with nothing much new really, just to ammend the errors.

Adam was not a literal man, he is a representation for all mankind. That is what his name means. And when one reads Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 objectively, it becomes very clear.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

The Egyptians as did Moses' people when he went up the mountain lost sight of the prize and changed from worshipping the one behind the events to worshipping the events- Sun, Gold cow, etc. So Moses came to re-align them.

You do have a point...but it wasn't Moses that came to realign them, it was the person that the mythical character of Moses was based off of: Pharaoh Akhenaten.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

That Moses ushered Aries and Jesus- fish, as said in the movie was used misleadingly at best, he gave few fish examples in the Bible He had absolutely NO evidence for that deduction. There were many other common terms and items Jesus used, why not those Jesus mention 'needle eye', 'camel', gold, etc, etc, anyone could say he ushered the Camel Era/ages too.

You do have a point...but according the the scriptures, the fish/fisherman examples seemed to be used the most.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

That the creator of the constellations used them as 'bookmarks' for His important events and even us, doesn't invalidate these events, when those constellations are rather worshipped in His stead as did the Egyptians, or misrepresented as did this producer. If I put an arrow on the road to point to a temple, if people start worshipping the arrow, it don't mean the temple never was.

So what are the events that you think really happened?

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

I believe in astrology, that God made all man in 12 codes, this movie makes that seem like I do not exist because there is Leo star/sign.

How do you draw that conclusion?

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

Yes 'coincidentally' the three stars align when all 27,000 prophets of God were born/historicaly this is easily verified, he himself doesnt dispute. But I know the creator created this marker, while he says that because people noticed three stars in a row at these special times and worshipped a three-in-a-row, those prophetic events are false.

Where do you get the number 27000 from? Also, how is it easily verified if most of the evidence comes from scriptures? "Holy" books are not history books.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

His movie is questions I easily answer as a believer, I would love to hear his alternative answers to these miraculous prophetic coincidences all in line, across the globe thru time from Noah, thru Abraham, thru Jesus, to Arabia and Muhammed...all three stars events, astrologically confirmed by scientists today. Maybe 3 stars spark births of revolutionary people or myths. I give praise to the force that aligns 3 stars.

You're assuming that all of those events happened just as they were written, when its pretty obvious that they didn't, if they even happened at all.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

So the movie proved semblance and numerous coincidences, but didn't veriify or provide good reasons for such serious complicated miraculous coincidences. Good or evil(the lack of good @ Onjiboy) How does information travel the ancient world so fast and make impacts if there wasn't supernatural forces involved i ask......

I agree that there are other forces involved, but that is a discussion for another day.

[RetiredEgo]

I have told u several times. Adam was and Adam is. There was Adam, and I am Adam. Adam as the first man, scientists themselves accept- http://againstscience.com and Adam - all man.

2. Religious books are history books. There are many other millions of writings that doccument a man Jesus was, who was born around the 3 star consellation, Prophet John/Yahya was, another man prophet Muhammed too was, and he also born at a scientific 3 star constellation, etc etc. I will not debate about Moses and Abraham with u, cuz That's not crucial to making my case. Quran advices not to waste time arguing that Abraham historical stuff u have and can't really ever have any clue of Deal with these 3 recent stories. Do u need numerous written and other evidence that these 3 existed?

3. I don't even know the point the movie was trying to make, come to think of it. The producer most likely even believes in the 1force/ God and knows these people were, and surrounded by many scientific miracles, he only objects to the paganic faith that their simple truth was converted into, and also he possibly just came to the realization we long have, that the real faith didnt start with Jesus, and that it is bounded by greater astrological events similar to our miraculous zodiac sign formatting/programming.

[RetiredEgo]

BTW, if prophet Moses was like another supposed great man/prophet before him, so what? What do u know of astrology? Do u know how many people 's lifes are almost exactly identical to urs? The Holy books always pride in displaying how prophets are similar. Muslims always compare how Prophet Muhammeds life story is identical to Moses'. As we of same zodiac signs are identical, so have many great and small men been. ofcourse some false scripture add lies, adding unique feats of the prior dude when writing the new story. Remember the Bible talks about the lies of scribes in it.

So what's ur difficulty understanding that Moses, Mises, Mesa and whoever else could have been similar in many ways?

Muslim count of Prophets God sent is about 27,000, yup, many Prophets to all peoples. Many u read of with srange names, and think cuz they are great and not in conventional religious books that religion f+#ed up. We recognize them. They are prophets too. Moses wasnt the first prophet in Egypt. There were many there b4 him, they had aspects of the commandments from these from the time of Adam.

[Onyiiboy]

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

I have told u several times. Adam was and Adam is. There was Adam, and I am Adam. Adam as the first man, scientists themselves accept- http://againstscience.com and Adam - all man.

According to your scriptures, the first human beings were not Adam and Eve...the first people were created on "Day 6" while "Adam and Eve" were created after "Day 7"

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

2. Religious books are history books.

To my knowledge, besides the Abrahamic religions, no other faith takes their religious books as history. They were seen as distinct and separate.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

There are many other millions of writings that doccument a man Jesus was, who was born around the 3 star consellation, Prophet John/Yahya was, another man prophet Muhammed too was, and he also born at a scientific 3 star constellation, etc etc. I will not debate about Moses and Abraham with u, cuz That's not crucial to making my case. Quran advices not to waste time arguing that Abraham historical stuff u have and can't really ever have any clue of Deal with these 3 recent stories. Do u need numerous written and other evidence that these 3 existed?

I am not doubting the existance of 3 men. However, to say that everything written about them is true would be downright foolish. I do believe that there was a wise teacher named Yeshua, but he was probaly not born of a virgin, probably did not walk on water, and probably did not do alot of things attributed to him. The same with other prophets.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

3. I don't even know the point the movie was trying to make, come to think of it. The producer most likely even believes in the 1force/ God and knows these people were, and surrounded by many scientific miracles, he only objects to the paganic faith that their simple truth was converted into, and also he possibly just came to the realization we long have, that the real faith didnt start with Jesus, and that it is bounded by greater astrological events similar to our miraculous zodiac sign formatting/programming.

I think the producer was trying to show how religion is used to control people..and how the folks that have the true knowledge are the ones that run the show.

[RetiredEgo]

I agree, except, I do not subscribe to the numbered days u talk of, Quranic scripture is what I use. Any minor variatons/inaccuacies in their documentation is not my problem/important. Ofcourse u know I detest the major errors in the Bible as much as anyone else.

Scripture are history books too, historians agree. There's no better doccumentation of the lives and times of Yashua or Muhammed than the many true sciptures. Good sources of history on events of the time. Not the Bible oh, it seems that book has damaged u irreversibly. Now u reject all writings even with no evidence against them/reason to.

If most of the tales written in so many books found everywhere about Yashua were wrong, please show me evidence of some other writers who wrote at the time about it. You must provide this evidence. There are always people on both sides. Where is their writing.... I rely on solid evidence and do not participate in conjecture and blind biased unfounded rejecton.

[Onyiiboy]

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

BTW, if prophet Moses was like another supposed great man/prophet before him, so what? What do u know of astrology? Do u know how many people 's lifes are almost exactly identical to urs? The Holy books always pride in displaying how prophets are similar. Muslims always compare how Prophet Muhammeds life story is identical to Moses'. As we of same zodiac signs are identical, so have many great and small men been. ofcourse some false scripture add lies, adding unique feats of the prior dude when writing the new story. Remember the Bible talks about the lies of scribes in it.

So what's ur difficulty understanding that Moses, Mises, Mesa and whoever else could have been similar in many ways?

Muslim count of Prophets God sent is about 27,000, yup, many Prophets to all peoples. Many u read of with srange names, and think cuz they are great and not in conventional religious books that religion f+#ed up. We recognize them. They are prophets too. Moses wasnt the first prophet in Egypt. There were many there b4 him, they had aspects of the commandments from these from the time of Adam.

Its not unheard of for prophets to be similar in many aspects: performing certain miracles, being rejected by the people, and maybe even being persecuted. However, when you see certain events like both Moses and Sargon being rescued by a princess in a reed basket...or both Jesus and Elisha multiplying loaves of bread and fish...or both Jesus and Horus having their births announced by angels with immaculate conceptions...it probably was an act of plagerism, since that was common in olden times.

[RetiredEgo]

Onyiiboy

Can I get evidence of plagerism/against Moses existence and story? I do not live on mere suspiction. Wasn't there a single smart person at Moses' time that documented his inexistence? I wonder why I love evidence... If all the smart literates of that era believed and wrote him as more than myth, I proudly join them..afterall reality is myth, and I am Adam. U contradict urself, understanding we are All same as Adam, all still eating the fruit, yet saying Moses can't be like that guy, if that guy did exist.

If u didnt see the interposition of Osama on Jesus' picture, u prolly would have denied things could be so alike...or do u call Osama a myth for being depicted posing in his picture to look so much like the erroneous Jesus depiction... he is a myth actually.

Recently there was a beautiful scary article showing similar similarities btw two kings/leaders of our Era, I will dig many of these up for u soon.

And U'll tell me King LionHeart didnt exist/was a plagerism

[Onyiiboy]

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

I agree, except, I do not subscribe to the numbered days u talk of, Quranic scripture is what I use. Any minor variatons/inaccuacies in their documentation is not my problem/important. Ofcourse u know I detest the major errors in the Bible as much as anyone else.

Its pretty obvious that the "days" weren't 24 hour periods...they were ages. And they got the order right, as I showed in this thread: My Irrefutable Evidence for Creation Theory

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

Scripture are history books too, historians agree. There's no better doccumentation of the lives and times of Yashua or Muhammed than the many true sciptures. Good sources of history on events of the time. Not the Bible oh, it seems that book has damaged u irreversibly. Now u reject all writings even with no evidence against them/reason to.

The Biblical Gospels not only contradict history, they contradict themselves. There was no mass census around the time of the birth of Yeshua. There was no event that the Romans would let the crowd choose to set free a prisinor. The Romans did not nail people to crosses. And so on and so on. The Bible is not a reliable source of history...it can't even get a genealogy straight.

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

If most of the tales written in so many books found everywhere about Yashua were wrong, please show me evidence of some other writers who wrote at the time about it. You must provide this evidence. There are always people on both sides. Where is their writing.... I rely on solid evidence and do not participate in conjecture and blind biased unfounded rejecton.

There was nothing written about Yeshua until after his death. And the brief passage about him from the most reliable historical source (Josephus) has been proven to have been tampered with.

[Onyiiboy]

Originally Posted by RetiredEgo

Onyiiboy

Can I get evidence of plagerism/against Moses existence and story? I do not live on mere suspiction. Wasn't there a single smart person at Moses' time that documented his inexistence? I wonder why I love evidence... If all the smart literates of that era believed and wrote him as more than myth, I proudly join them..afterall reality is myth, and I am Adam. U contradict urself, understanding we are All same as Adam, all still eating the fruit, yet saying Moses can't be like that guy, if that guy did exist.

If u didnt see the interposition of Osama on Jesus' picture, u prolly would have denied things could be so alike...or do u call Osama a myth for being depicted posing in his picture to look so much like the erroneous Jesus depiction... he is a myth actually.

Recently there was a beautiful scary article showing similar similarities btw two kings/leaders of our Era, I will dig many of these up for u soon.

And U'll tell me King LionHeart didnt exist/was a plagerism

1. Moses is a corrupted Egyptian name...not a Hebrew one...the character was obviously based off an Egyptian man

2. The "drawn out of the water" sequence is taken from the story of Sargon

3. The story is able to name the Hebrew midwives (Shiphrah and Puah), but cannot produce the name of the Pharaoh

4. There was no Pharaoh that drowned in the "Sea of Reeds" (mistranslated as the Red Sea)

5. There is no record of the "10 plagues" in Egypt or anywhere else

6. There is NO historical or anthropolgical evidence for the Exodus in Egypt or in Canaan


The Biblical character Moses was based off the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten:

"At the city of Akhetaten, the ancient religion of the Aten received a make-over. Aten temple design, ritual, and symbolism (by a falcon-headed man and a sun disc referred to as Re-Herakhty) derived originally from the traditional solar god Ra whose center of worship had been from very ancient times at Memphis and On (Heliopolis). By the end of the coregency, the falcon-man had been removed from the Aten's symbol. The Aten had in essence become a god without human or animal image.(21) The disc of the sun was now considered to be the single physical representation of the invisible and eternal god, Ra,(22) and a deity in its own right. (The sun disc was used later as a royal "lamelech" seal by the Kings of Judah).(23) The cartouche of Akhenaten's god and heavenly father, the Aten, bore the name Imram. In the Bible, Moses is referred to as the son of Amram, the Hebrew equivalent.(24)"

"[b]The name of the Egyptian deity Aten transliterates into the Hebrew word Adon.[b](25) Adon, which is translated by English Bibles as "the Lord" (and Adonai, translated as "my Lord") is used along with Jehovah (Yhwh) in the Bible as the exclusive personal names of God. Moreover, in ancient times, the name Jehovah (Yhwh) was written, but never spoken. Whenever the written name Jehovah (Yhwh) was to be read out loud, Adon (Aten) was voiced instead.(26) The written form of Adon is infrequent, however, its limited usage is significant, especially in the first six books of the Bible (See under "LORD" in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance), where it is reserved for the following applications alone: Moses addresses God using the title Adon/Aten (Exodus 4:10,13; 5:22; 34:9; Numbers 14:17; Deuteronomy 3:23; 7:26; 10:17); Moses, himself, is addressed both by Aaron (Ex.32:22; Num.12:11) and by Joshua (Numbers 11:28) using the title Adon/Aten; and Joshua also addresses God using the title Adon/Aten (Joshua 5:14 b; 7:7). As mentioned above, there is an established relationship between the literature of the Egyptian 18th Dynasty and the Bible. Psalm 104 is an embellishment of the Hymn to the Aten which was found by archaeologists at the city of Akhetaten."

"Although the city of Akhetaten was never rebuilt, there is a village on the opposite side of the Nile which has retained the name Mal-lawi (or Mallevi, meaning "city of the Levites") to this present day!(36) The Levites are identified by Osman as that select group of nobles and close relatives of Akhenaten and Yuya who made up the newly formed priesthood of the Aten and served in the temples of Aten at Thebes and at the new capital city of Akhetaten.(37) (In the Sinai, the Levites were Moses' primary supporters when trouble broke out.) While Akhenaten was still in power, the majority of Hebrews/Israelites would have remained either at Zarw(38) in the Nile delta, or at Akhmin, and would have continued to worship their own god(s) in their own native tongue. This later caused Akhenaten (Moses) some consternation (Exodus 4:10).(39)"

[Onyiiboy]

"Akhenaten's reforms may have succeeded had they not coincided with a terrible plague that was spreading throughout the entire Middle East.(44) The rapid growth of trade and exchange among nations of the Middle East made possible by the political stability of the times also facilitated the spread of disease. Amenhotep III had made 700 idols of Sekhmet, the goddess of pestilence, in order to ward off the plague, which must have started to take hold on Egypt by the end of his reign. Two statues were made for every day of the year providing a "double spell" against the spreading disease.(45)"

The description of the rod of Moses found in the Bible is another indication that Akhenaten was living in exile in the Sinai desert. Pharaohs possessed many types of scepters representing various aspects of their sovereignty. The staff topped by a brazen serpent was the scepter symbolizing pharoanic authority.(62) We are told that this scepter was later destroyed by Hezekiah because it had become a cult fetish (2 Kings 18:4).(63)

The Talmud relates that Moses had indeed been a king (of Ethiopia) for a time, but had abdicated in favor of a son sired by an elderly Queen Mother Adonith (Egyptian Aten-it) through her husband the previous king.(64) Pharaohs of the 18th Dynasty were also considered to be the rulers of Ethiopia (Kush). One, and possibly the only, military action of Akhenaten took place in Ethiopia (Kush) where he confirmed his kingship over the region.

Surviving excerpts from two Egyptian histories provide even more clues regarding the true identity of Moses. The History of Egypt (Aegyptiaca) written in the 3rd Century B.C. in Greek by the Egyptian High Priest of Heliopolis known as Manetho recorded details about Moses and the Exodus.(65) Also, the five volume History of Egypt written by Apion in the first half of the 1st Century A.D. contained a passage about Moses that was quoted by the Jewish historian Josephus.(66) Josephus (circa 70 A.D.) transmitted from Apion's work that Moses had constructed temples in Egypt which were oriented eastward, had roofs open to the sun, and made use of a modified obelisk. These were all distinctive characteristics of Akhenaten's many temples.

Excerpts from Manetho's history quoted by Josephus and the Christian historian Eusebius (chronicler to Constantine) place the Exodus specifically under Moses during the reign of Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) following a 13 year period marked by pestilence, rebellion and the violation of Egyptian temples and their gods.(67) This is an accurate description of the traumatic 13 year period during which Akhenaten ruled Egypt from the new city of Akhetaten.(68) Josephus, who was also a Jew, took great offence to the accounts of both Manetho and Apion. Lacking any hard evidence to contradict these sources, Josephus resorted to simply denouncing the accounts as "ridiculous" and "silly." Fortunately, he quoted enough verbatim from Manetho and Apion to now prove otherwise!(69)

Taken from "Moses: Pharaoh of Egypt"
by Ahmed Osman
www.domainofman.com